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[Music]

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so you guys

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are in quite a fight

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for individual freedom um

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i i think we should talk about what

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you're dealing with right now

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and the fact that you guys are providing

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services

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to adults and there's there's attempts

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to cancel that we have our cancer

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culture going on

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right now and so there's people out

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trying to cancel

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what you're doing but if i understand

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correctly what's going on in the uk

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there's even efforts to make a law that

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would actually ban

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what you're doing in the united states

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we have lots of laws

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that ban therapies that that

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involve people under 18 but i don't

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think a single state yet has banned it

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for adults who individually

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on their own make a decision that they

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want to go in and get the therapy of

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their choice

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america as yet has not banned that

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although there was an effort in

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california

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a year or so ago to go in that direction

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that ultimately

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got got scuttled but is that what you're

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facing in the uk is the potential ban

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for even

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adults uh yes it is

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it's a it would be a national ban in the

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uk that's what they're aiming to do

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probably

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similar to what they have done in

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germany

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recently and of course malta

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in 2016 was the first european

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state to ban it for for everyone

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did they originally ban it just for

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children these various countries and now

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they've extended it to adults or they

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just started with

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a complete ban no they they headed

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straight for the top

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and they have just uploaded for everyone

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right so just so you know most of my

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listeners are aware of this issue we've

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covered it before but

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just to be clear for anybody listening

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to this anew

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um what we're talking about and please

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tell me if i mistake it is that if an

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adult wants to go get

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counseling for uh

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um based on their sexual orientation and

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wanting to discuss their orientation

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wanting to potentially

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reduce homosexuality feelings of

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homosexuality etc

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these countries want to make it illegal

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for that person to voluntarily go talk

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to a therapist about this

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it's slightly more nuanced in uh

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germany i would have to say you might be

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able to discuss it with a qualified

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therapist

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prove that you weren't

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there under any kind of pressure or

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duress

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but in the united kingdom the what we

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call the united kingdom council for

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psychotherapy

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argued way back in 2014

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that it is an ethical offence to change

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or

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a person's sexual feelings so it's an

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ethical offense

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and they they like to point to the

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history of all kinds of

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things that were supposedly done back in

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the 60s and 70s

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to get people to reduce their

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homosexuality

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feelings as the basis for these bans so

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they talk about electronic shock

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therapy etc i

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what are some of these practices that

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were done in the past

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which truly in your opinion you know are

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inappropriate

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well anything that coerces somebody into

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behaving a certain way must

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raise ethical concerns electroshock

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therapy was

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used for decades actually but only by

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medics so in this country those

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associated with the royal college

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of general practitioners or the royal

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college of

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psychiatrists they would be the people

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who did that but of course

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in the late 50s 60s that was ended

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there's not ever been any ministry

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initiative that have have ever used

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these things

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but curiously in this country the uk

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government

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cites corrective rape

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for lesbians as a conversion

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therapy technique and when we did a

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freedom of information

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request or one of our organizations

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did this freedom of information request

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of course it was revealed that nobody

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has ever been prosecuted in this country

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number one for such a thing and number

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two

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of course it's already illegal so it's

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hard to understand

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why these extreme behaviors are being

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brought into a definition

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unless it's really to you know put put

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all of this in a very

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extreme context so we have side by side

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electroshock therapy frontal lobotomies

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castration all of these things and then

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talking therapy it's all defined

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as conversion therapy which

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seems bizarre yeah well and they've done

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the lgbt activists and the left have

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done a great job of convincing the

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public

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that all these conversion therapies are

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absolutely

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wacky wacky stuff and uh

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basically laughable i mean if you talk

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about convert

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they've done an amazing um pr job

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on conversion therapy of getting it

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tossed out as a bunch of nut jobs

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and it it kind of drives a truck through

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both

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conversion and therapy it's a nonsense

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term it's a pejorative term

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actually invented by uh dr

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douglas helderman who is an activist a

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well-known activist

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within the american psychological

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association

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and way back in the 90s 1991

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2 3 he started using this term

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which is you know uh rarely gone global

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and now

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with the united nations of course they

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appointed not so long ago

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a specialist who would concentrate on

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sexual

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orientation and transgender issues

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he's taken this to the next level and is

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trying to make sure that the united

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nations

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outlaw

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conversion therapy so-called yeah

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um it really comes down to

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the fact to a scientific question seems

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to me

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which is whether you're born this way or

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not

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the lgbt activists in the left are

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uh absolutely want everyone to adhere to

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the notion that you're born this way

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and if you're born this way then it does

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make sense

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that these type of therapies even

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talking

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therapies perhaps are inappropriate

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because

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if you're born this way what is there to

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well um you know as recently as 2019

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ghana and other scientists

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certainly in the united kingdom used one

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of the largest data samples that has

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been known

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and has clearly come out saying that

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there is no gay gene

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and that the genetic contribution to all

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of this

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is very minimal even the royal college

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of psychiatrists here in the uk

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talk about the fact that the you know

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the operative

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thing are postnatal conditions in other

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words

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they have walked away from this idea of

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genetics and i would have to ask which

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of these professional mental health

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bodies

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actually say that it's you know

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totally about what we inherit

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and i think you would find that they

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don't actually say it this is the

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strange thing

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even professor lisa diamond who would be

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a well-known

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lesbian activist in the apa has clearly

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stated

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that you know born gay is dead this is

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not something

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that we need to be using to argue the

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rights of gay people to exist so why are

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we doing it

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yeah it's a it's a scientific fallacy uh

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there's twin studies

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which demonstrate that when one twin is

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gay the majority

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of the time the other twin is not gay

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we've now mapped the human genome and

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they've

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yet to find any gay gene um and

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but yet for some reason many in that

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community cling to it because they feel

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like that's the only way that they'll

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get acceptance

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is to believe that you're born this way

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and i've argued on this show many times

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that

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no there can absolutely be love and

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acceptance

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without having to manufacture this idea

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that you're

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born this way when truly when clearly

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the science

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proves the opposite sure

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i think it might be the instagram

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generation

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uh james in my opinion this is a this is

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a younger

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group of folks who maybe don't

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value scientific debate as

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some others in society would

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i often find that they are they are not

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well informed

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about the scientific facts around this

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and globally certainly in the western

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world

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this kind of received information seems

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to be

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a real hindrance in terms of knowledge

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that

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can you know allow different points of

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view

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different ideology surely to coexist

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but what we have now is um

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a kind of mono culture that

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is determined to impose

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one point of view they they they rule

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who

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research

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money um they are the ones who

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you know judge the research they are the

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ones who

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allow or disallow the publication of

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things

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it's it's something that um

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i think it's about viewpoint

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discrimination and there is no longer

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this competition for ideas where

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so to speak iron strikes iron and

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different points of view come together

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and hammer it out because of their

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mutual confidence

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in scientific methodology we've lost

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that and it's a dangerous

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sign i'll give you a great example that

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just came up recently when mark

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zuckerberg

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of facebook was testifying in front of

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congress he was asked about

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the fact that um they took down

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some doctors talking about

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hydroxychloroquine

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and its positive effects um as as a

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prophylactic

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against uh kovid and he said well

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that went against the cdc the cdc

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center for disease control does not

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support hydroxychloroquine

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and so that's why we took it down it's

294
00:11:40,790 --> 00:11:38,000
like

295
00:11:42,550 --> 00:11:40,800
whoa you're saying if you disagree with

296
00:11:45,829 --> 00:11:42,560
what the government

297
00:11:49,030 --> 00:11:45,839
says we take it down the government

298
00:11:50,870 --> 00:11:49,040
is the ultimate arbiter of the truth

299
00:11:52,629 --> 00:11:50,880
that's scary stuff and here's mark

300
00:11:53,430 --> 00:11:52,639
zuckerberg testifying in front of

301
00:11:54,629 --> 00:11:53,440
congress

302
00:11:56,389 --> 00:11:54,639
and saying that that's how they're

303
00:11:57,829 --> 00:11:56,399
conducting facebook they will take it

304
00:11:59,350 --> 00:11:57,839
down if you put up something

305
00:12:01,590 --> 00:11:59,360
that that disagrees with what the

306
00:12:03,910 --> 00:12:01,600
government says

307
00:12:05,750 --> 00:12:03,920
well that's music to my ears actually

308
00:12:07,990 --> 00:12:05,760
james because we've had our running in

309
00:12:09,590 --> 00:12:08,000
the last couple of weeks with facebook

310
00:12:13,509 --> 00:12:09,600
we had

311
00:12:16,069 --> 00:12:13,519
i have a program and we've been weekly

312
00:12:16,870 --> 00:12:16,079
broadcasting for a number of weeks and

313
00:12:19,670 --> 00:12:16,880
uh

314
00:12:21,269 --> 00:12:19,680
we decided to do some adverts to promote

315
00:12:24,389 --> 00:12:21,279
this material so

316
00:12:26,949 --> 00:12:24,399
you know we paid our money facebook

317
00:12:27,670 --> 00:12:26,959
checked it all out approved the adverts

318
00:12:29,829 --> 00:12:27,680
and they ran

319
00:12:31,190 --> 00:12:29,839
for the full length i think the you know

320
00:12:34,629 --> 00:12:31,200
wasn't massive but

321
00:12:35,269 --> 00:12:34,639
67 000 people were reached through it

322
00:12:37,110 --> 00:12:35,279
all

323
00:12:39,750 --> 00:12:37,120
and then there were complaints from the

324
00:12:42,470 --> 00:12:39,760
lgbt lobby or some of them

325
00:12:43,829 --> 00:12:42,480
and the reaction was that facebook

326
00:12:46,550 --> 00:12:43,839
immediately

327
00:12:47,190 --> 00:12:46,560
banned six of them having taken the

328
00:12:49,829 --> 00:12:47,200
money

329
00:12:53,190 --> 00:12:49,839
having individually approved of them and

330
00:12:56,069 --> 00:12:53,200
then tagged them all as hate speech

331
00:12:56,629 --> 00:12:56,079
and what that taught me was it's you

332
00:12:58,310 --> 00:12:56,639
know

333
00:13:00,470 --> 00:12:58,320
it's only if you're successfully

334
00:13:03,509 --> 00:13:00,480
starting to speak out

335
00:13:05,030 --> 00:13:03,519
and you upset one side of the house are

336
00:13:06,949 --> 00:13:05,040
you going to get into trouble with

337
00:13:09,430 --> 00:13:06,959
facebook but otherwise they're quite

338
00:13:12,069 --> 00:13:09,440
happy to take your money and carry on

339
00:13:13,590 --> 00:13:12,079
yeah and the cancel culture is all on

340
00:13:15,509 --> 00:13:13,600
the left you don't have people on the

341
00:13:18,150 --> 00:13:15,519
right wanting to cancel out free speech

342
00:13:20,790 --> 00:13:18,160
it's all on the left so these companies

343
00:13:22,550 --> 00:13:20,800
end up regardless of what their

344
00:13:24,870 --> 00:13:22,560
particular political beliefs are

345
00:13:26,230 --> 00:13:24,880
they end up listening to the left cancel

346
00:13:28,550 --> 00:13:26,240
culture because

347
00:13:29,910 --> 00:13:28,560
they don't want to have uh it you know

348
00:13:32,310 --> 00:13:29,920
average you know

349
00:13:33,910 --> 00:13:32,320
a campaign to convince people not to

350
00:13:35,590 --> 00:13:33,920
advertise on facebook you know to

351
00:13:36,629 --> 00:13:35,600
protest against facebook because it's

352
00:13:39,350 --> 00:13:36,639
giving

353
00:13:40,550 --> 00:13:39,360
voice to whether it be what you guys are

354
00:13:43,750 --> 00:13:40,560
doing or anything else

355
00:13:45,670 --> 00:13:43,760
um so and this has happened to

356
00:13:47,670 --> 00:13:45,680
you guys they've tried to cancel you out

357
00:13:50,949 --> 00:13:47,680
by going to your

358
00:13:51,430 --> 00:13:50,959
banking relationships and getting them

359
00:13:53,030 --> 00:13:51,440
to

360
00:13:56,790 --> 00:13:53,040
cancel their business relationship with

361
00:13:59,750 --> 00:13:56,800
you well it all started with paypal

362
00:14:02,069 --> 00:13:59,760
so we've for you know more than a decade

363
00:14:06,710 --> 00:14:02,079
we've had a very amicable relationship

364
00:14:10,069 --> 00:14:06,720
with paypal and all of our

365
00:14:11,990 --> 00:14:10,079
websites would pay attention to paypal

366
00:14:13,910 --> 00:14:12,000
in terms of getting donations and all

367
00:14:15,590 --> 00:14:13,920
the rest of it

368
00:14:17,910 --> 00:14:15,600
all of the accounts were simply

369
00:14:19,990 --> 00:14:17,920
unilaterally ended

370
00:14:21,590 --> 00:14:20,000
and with paypal there's been no

371
00:14:25,430 --> 00:14:21,600
discussion there's no

372
00:14:26,150 --> 00:14:25,440
way of contacting them if you phone them

373
00:14:28,150 --> 00:14:26,160
they just say

374
00:14:31,189 --> 00:14:28,160
you know covet 19 they haven't got the

375
00:14:34,949 --> 00:14:31,199
staff etc so that was ended

376
00:14:37,750 --> 00:14:34,959
shortly after that mailchimp

377
00:14:38,310 --> 00:14:37,760
all our mailchimp accounts were simply

378
00:14:40,710 --> 00:14:38,320
ended

379
00:14:42,870 --> 00:14:40,720
overnight something that is really you

380
00:14:45,750 --> 00:14:42,880
know business critical for us

381
00:14:46,230 --> 00:14:45,760
in terms of communication wow and you

382
00:14:49,350 --> 00:14:46,240
know

383
00:14:53,269 --> 00:14:49,360
is what allows you to do um

384
00:14:55,750 --> 00:14:53,279
you know wide email blasts right yeah

385
00:14:57,030 --> 00:14:55,760
and we stopped by the rules we weren't

386
00:14:59,430 --> 00:14:57,040
you know blasting

387
00:15:00,790 --> 00:14:59,440
who we shouldn't where there was no spam

388
00:15:02,629 --> 00:15:00,800
these were all people who were

389
00:15:06,069 --> 00:15:02,639
subscribed

390
00:15:09,189 --> 00:15:06,079
um but they've just ended it um and then

391
00:15:10,470 --> 00:15:09,199
barclays bank a big multinational bank

392
00:15:13,590 --> 00:15:10,480
that i've banked with

393
00:15:17,030 --> 00:15:13,600
all of my life basically uh

394
00:15:18,790 --> 00:15:17,040
again simply decided well they gave us

395
00:15:19,110 --> 00:15:18,800
two months notice but they've said they

396
00:15:21,829 --> 00:15:19,120
will

397
00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:21,839
end all of our accounts on the 14th of

398
00:15:24,790 --> 00:15:23,600
september

399
00:15:27,829 --> 00:15:24,800
and you haven't been able to have a

400
00:15:29,749 --> 00:15:27,839
conversation with any of these entities

401
00:15:32,069 --> 00:15:29,759
well i had a conversation in the sense

402
00:15:34,949 --> 00:15:32,079
that i emailed barclays and said

403
00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:34,959
uh you know excuse me why what have we

404
00:15:37,670 --> 00:15:35,920
done

405
00:15:39,110 --> 00:15:37,680
and they came back and said because of

406
00:15:42,310 --> 00:15:39,120
article i don't know

407
00:15:43,749 --> 00:15:42,320
nine or something and so i said well

408
00:15:45,829 --> 00:15:43,759
what's that about and they

409
00:15:47,829 --> 00:15:45,839
they came back saying well it allows us

410
00:15:49,749 --> 00:15:47,839
to cancel the account and we don't have

411
00:15:52,870 --> 00:15:49,759
to tell you why

412
00:15:53,829 --> 00:15:52,880
yeah and that's your answer well i'm a

413
00:15:56,710 --> 00:15:53,839
big free market

414
00:15:58,310 --> 00:15:56,720
advocate so you know companies choosing

415
00:15:59,430 --> 00:15:58,320
to do business with whoever they want to

416
00:16:02,150 --> 00:15:59,440
choose to do business with

417
00:16:04,389 --> 00:16:02,160
you know i'm okay with but uh i think

418
00:16:07,670 --> 00:16:04,399
these companies are making a huge

419
00:16:08,150 --> 00:16:07,680
mistake to be you know choosing to do

420
00:16:11,269 --> 00:16:08,160
business

421
00:16:15,030 --> 00:16:11,279
based on political views and

422
00:16:15,829 --> 00:16:15,040
canceling out uh business relationships

423
00:16:18,949 --> 00:16:15,839
based on

424
00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:18,959
political views i mean it's just crazy

425
00:16:23,430 --> 00:16:21,360
well and you know with respect if you go

426
00:16:25,030 --> 00:16:23,440
into the history of barclays bank they

427
00:16:28,629 --> 00:16:25,040
were doing a lot of business with

428
00:16:32,230 --> 00:16:28,639
cuba they did a lot of business um

429
00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:32,240
with robert mugabe in

430
00:16:35,990 --> 00:16:35,040
zimbabwe and people were objecting to

431
00:16:38,230 --> 00:16:36,000
that

432
00:16:39,269 --> 00:16:38,240
they were active during the apartheid

433
00:16:42,550 --> 00:16:39,279
years

434
00:16:45,749 --> 00:16:42,560
in south africa i could go on and on

435
00:16:48,829 --> 00:16:45,759
in terms of money that you know was lost

436
00:16:52,069 --> 00:16:48,839
after world war ii barclays has been

437
00:16:55,670 --> 00:16:52,079
implicated at every level but they seem

438
00:16:59,030 --> 00:16:55,680
to have a very selective left-wing

439
00:17:00,470 --> 00:16:59,040
morality when it comes to this issue

440
00:17:01,910 --> 00:17:00,480
well i think don't you also point out

441
00:17:03,509 --> 00:17:01,920
that they do business in the middle east

442
00:17:06,309 --> 00:17:03,519
where homosexuality is

443
00:17:09,909 --> 00:17:06,319
illegal yeah i forgot that's probably

444
00:17:16,390 --> 00:17:13,510
so i'm not sure that it's really like

445
00:17:17,990 --> 00:17:16,400
if they truly were left-wing then they

446
00:17:19,110 --> 00:17:18,000
would not be doing business with these

447
00:17:21,510 --> 00:17:19,120
middle eastern

448
00:17:23,429 --> 00:17:21,520
countries so either it's that business

449
00:17:25,909 --> 00:17:23,439
is just too big

450
00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:25,919
or it's because they are concerned about

451
00:17:30,710 --> 00:17:26,720
blowback

452
00:17:32,950 --> 00:17:30,720
from these lgbt activists um

453
00:17:34,950 --> 00:17:32,960
and they're reacting to that concern

454
00:17:36,710 --> 00:17:34,960
they don't want there to be some type of

455
00:17:39,110 --> 00:17:36,720
internet protest movement against

456
00:17:41,669 --> 00:17:39,120
barclays

457
00:17:42,470 --> 00:17:41,679
well you're probably right in our case

458
00:17:46,150 --> 00:17:42,480
this was

459
00:17:49,990 --> 00:17:46,160
all sparked off um in the month of june

460
00:17:53,350 --> 00:17:50,000
um during pride month in the uk

461
00:17:56,630 --> 00:17:53,360
uh there was a twitter campaign to end

462
00:17:57,750 --> 00:17:56,640
our barclays account and of course

463
00:18:02,710 --> 00:17:57,760
barclays bank

464
00:18:05,990 --> 00:18:02,720
is a big funder of and a big headliner

465
00:18:07,350 --> 00:18:06,000
in terms of pride in london it pays for

466
00:18:10,230 --> 00:18:07,360
a lot of it

467
00:18:11,270 --> 00:18:10,240
so it all works together and there's

468
00:18:14,070 --> 00:18:11,280
certainly evidence

469
00:18:15,830 --> 00:18:14,080
of that on the twitter feeds around this

470
00:18:18,710 --> 00:18:15,840
issue

471
00:18:20,310 --> 00:18:18,720
so the the problem in uk is you've got a

472
00:18:23,750 --> 00:18:20,320
national government

473
00:18:26,870 --> 00:18:23,760
that wants to ban this though so these

474
00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:26,880
what we call lgbt activists they've got

475
00:18:30,870 --> 00:18:28,000
the support

476
00:18:31,669 --> 00:18:30,880
of the church of england and the british

477
00:18:35,029 --> 00:18:31,679
government

478
00:18:35,830 --> 00:18:35,039
behind the idea that adults should not

479
00:18:38,230 --> 00:18:35,840
be able to

480
00:18:40,789 --> 00:18:38,240
be permitted to seek the counseling of

481
00:18:42,950 --> 00:18:40,799
their choice

482
00:18:46,070 --> 00:18:42,960
well you're correct uh when it comes to

483
00:18:47,750 --> 00:18:46,080
the church of england so in 2017 the

484
00:18:49,110 --> 00:18:47,760
archbishop of canterbury and the

485
00:18:52,230 --> 00:18:49,120
archbishop of york

486
00:18:55,270 --> 00:18:52,240
decided that banning um

487
00:18:59,350 --> 00:18:55,280
so-called conversion therapy should be

488
00:19:01,350 --> 00:18:59,360
a priority it was opposed by many

489
00:19:04,390 --> 00:19:01,360
but it won the day and they've gone

490
00:19:08,549 --> 00:19:06,390
as far as the government is concerned i

491
00:19:10,710 --> 00:19:08,559
think it's important to recognize that

492
00:19:13,750 --> 00:19:10,720
theresa may's government was very

493
00:19:16,310 --> 00:19:13,760
proactive in this in 2018

494
00:19:18,549 --> 00:19:16,320
they promised they would ban it now

495
00:19:20,630 --> 00:19:18,559
we've had brexit we've had

496
00:19:21,590 --> 00:19:20,640
covered and all the rest of it we're

497
00:19:23,270 --> 00:19:21,600
more than two

498
00:19:24,630 --> 00:19:23,280
two and a half almost two and a half

499
00:19:28,310 --> 00:19:24,640
years on

500
00:19:31,669 --> 00:19:28,320
and i think this is what is angering

501
00:19:32,390 --> 00:19:31,679
activists they want to see this band and

502
00:19:34,710 --> 00:19:32,400
the government

503
00:19:36,070 --> 00:19:34,720
appears to have been slow-footed on this

504
00:19:38,870 --> 00:19:36,080
and it's true

505
00:19:40,070 --> 00:19:38,880
boris johnson has said they're going to

506
00:19:43,110 --> 00:19:40,080
ban it

507
00:19:45,909 --> 00:19:43,120
but you notice they didn't do it

508
00:19:47,830 --> 00:19:45,919
in this parliamentary sitting so we're

509
00:19:51,110 --> 00:19:47,840
waiting to see what will happen

510
00:19:53,590 --> 00:19:51,120
in september and very interestingly

511
00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:53,600
the press here revealed through the the

512
00:19:57,909 --> 00:19:55,200
telegraph

513
00:19:58,470 --> 00:19:57,919
that uh darning street seemed to be

514
00:20:01,590 --> 00:19:58,480
going

515
00:20:05,590 --> 00:20:01,600
towards a ban to appease

516
00:20:09,029 --> 00:20:05,600
the lgbt folk who were upset because of

517
00:20:11,870 --> 00:20:09,039
a backtracking that the government

518
00:20:14,950 --> 00:20:11,880
seemed to be carrying out on

519
00:20:17,590 --> 00:20:14,960
self-recognition for transgender folk

520
00:20:18,950 --> 00:20:17,600
now you know in other words there's a

521
00:20:22,230 --> 00:20:18,960
lot of politics

522
00:20:22,950 --> 00:20:22,240
about this uh about the politics of

523
00:20:25,990 --> 00:20:22,960
gender

524
00:20:28,630 --> 00:20:26,000
basically so we're waiting to see

525
00:20:29,830 --> 00:20:28,640
where they're going to go in the

526
00:20:33,350 --> 00:20:29,840
meantime

527
00:20:33,990 --> 00:20:33,360
we are really concerned that folks who

528
00:20:37,750 --> 00:20:34,000
who call

529
00:20:40,310 --> 00:20:37,760
themselves ex-gay or ex-lesbian

530
00:20:42,470 --> 00:20:40,320
or were formerly transgender whatever

531
00:20:45,590 --> 00:20:42,480
label you want to put on it

532
00:20:49,270 --> 00:20:45,600
they want to be able to speak out and

533
00:20:53,350 --> 00:20:49,280
share their stories

534
00:20:55,510 --> 00:20:53,360
and are they not being given a voice

535
00:20:57,270 --> 00:20:55,520
it's very difficult to get a voice i did

536
00:21:00,230 --> 00:20:57,280
an interview on the bbc

537
00:21:00,630 --> 00:21:00,240
on monday that was aired they will only

538
00:21:03,270 --> 00:21:00,640
ever

539
00:21:04,230 --> 00:21:03,280
interview those who are unhappy they

540
00:21:09,590 --> 00:21:04,240
refuse

541
00:21:12,950 --> 00:21:09,600
anybody else it's very difficult to get

542
00:21:15,590 --> 00:21:12,960
a sound bite into

543
00:21:16,470 --> 00:21:15,600
you know the the so-called mainstream

544
00:21:19,190 --> 00:21:16,480
media

545
00:21:20,950 --> 00:21:19,200
in this part of the world so let's get

546
00:21:23,750 --> 00:21:20,960
into a little bit of

547
00:21:25,510 --> 00:21:23,760
what the therapy is that you provide but

548
00:21:28,390 --> 00:21:25,520
you know i think we've established

549
00:21:29,270 --> 00:21:28,400
that you're not born this way based on

550
00:21:31,990 --> 00:21:29,280
the science

551
00:21:33,669 --> 00:21:32,000
and the genetics the twin studies the

552
00:21:34,789 --> 00:21:33,679
mapping of the human genome you know we

553
00:21:36,710 --> 00:21:34,799
certainly would have heard about a gay

554
00:21:40,870 --> 00:21:36,720
gene so it's something

555
00:21:43,990 --> 00:21:40,880
that occurs through nurturing um

556
00:21:46,950 --> 00:21:44,000
clearly it's something mental in

557
00:21:48,149 --> 00:21:46,960
it's in the head clearly odds in the

558
00:21:51,190 --> 00:21:48,159
brain

559
00:21:53,909 --> 00:21:51,200
um the apa uh

560
00:21:55,669 --> 00:21:53,919
the american psychologist association or

561
00:21:58,549 --> 00:21:55,679
psychiatric association

562
00:21:59,270 --> 00:21:58,559
uh no longer calls it a mental disorder

563
00:22:00,870 --> 00:21:59,280
um

564
00:22:02,390 --> 00:22:00,880
which you could quit about whether it's

565
00:22:06,070 --> 00:22:02,400
a disorder or not but it

566
00:22:09,990 --> 00:22:06,080
clearly is in is in the head um

567
00:22:12,950 --> 00:22:10,000
so the question is you know what

568
00:22:14,310 --> 00:22:12,960
causes it if you're not born this way uh

569
00:22:18,789 --> 00:22:14,320
what causes someone

570
00:22:21,990 --> 00:22:21,590
now the short answer it's never one

571
00:22:24,950 --> 00:22:22,000
thing

572
00:22:27,190 --> 00:22:24,960
it's most likely going to be a

573
00:22:30,310 --> 00:22:27,200
combination of things

574
00:22:33,830 --> 00:22:30,320
it can be either big t or small

575
00:22:35,110 --> 00:22:33,840
t traumas so things that happen to

576
00:22:38,070 --> 00:22:35,120
people i can

577
00:22:39,270 --> 00:22:38,080
introduce you to clients who did suffer

578
00:22:42,470 --> 00:22:39,280
abuse

579
00:22:44,789 --> 00:22:42,480
and after that did undergo a great deal

580
00:22:47,590 --> 00:22:44,799
of confusion in their lives

581
00:22:48,870 --> 00:22:47,600
and this was often reinforced in school

582
00:22:51,590 --> 00:22:48,880
context where people

583
00:22:53,590 --> 00:22:51,600
called them gay and in the end they just

584
00:22:55,430 --> 00:22:53,600
kind of gave in and said well i must be

585
00:22:58,789 --> 00:22:55,440
if people are saying that about me

586
00:23:01,830 --> 00:22:58,799
so sometimes it's trauma sometimes

587
00:23:05,669 --> 00:23:01,840
it's interventions that

588
00:23:06,870 --> 00:23:05,679
are unwelcome and often it's just about

589
00:23:11,190 --> 00:23:06,880
the fact that

590
00:23:14,470 --> 00:23:11,200
a young boy misses out in learning

591
00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:14,480
the kind of social technique

592
00:23:18,470 --> 00:23:18,080
of becoming united with the rest of the

593
00:23:21,430 --> 00:23:18,480
male

594
00:23:21,750 --> 00:23:21,440
tribes so to speak they kind of will say

595
00:23:25,909 --> 00:23:21,760
they

596
00:23:30,230 --> 00:23:25,919
always looking in

597
00:23:34,070 --> 00:23:33,190
you know be good on the sports field

598
00:23:37,110 --> 00:23:34,080
maybe they are

599
00:23:39,350 --> 00:23:37,120
more inclined towards the arts uh

600
00:23:41,269 --> 00:23:39,360
that causes a problem and they feel

601
00:23:44,789 --> 00:23:41,279
alienated

602
00:23:46,310 --> 00:23:44,799
so you know those are the those are the

603
00:23:49,510 --> 00:23:46,320
things we look for we

604
00:23:51,830 --> 00:23:49,520
we listen to what clients bring

605
00:23:53,269 --> 00:23:51,840
we have to be we first of all have to

606
00:23:55,110 --> 00:23:53,279
decide why they've come

607
00:23:57,029 --> 00:23:55,120
are they under pressure or are they

608
00:23:58,310 --> 00:23:57,039
there because they really want to talk

609
00:24:00,230 --> 00:23:58,320
this through

610
00:24:03,029 --> 00:24:00,240
secondly we need to understand their

611
00:24:04,950 --> 00:24:03,039
past what's happened in their lives

612
00:24:06,950 --> 00:24:04,960
and then thirdly we have to understand

613
00:24:07,909 --> 00:24:06,960
their goals and make sure that they are

614
00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:07,919
realistic

615
00:24:14,789 --> 00:24:11,760
and something that is achievable

616
00:24:16,789 --> 00:24:14,799
if they come there stating that they're

617
00:24:19,510 --> 00:24:16,799
having these proclivities

618
00:24:20,789 --> 00:24:19,520
and they don't want to have them for

619
00:24:23,430 --> 00:24:20,799
religious

620
00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:23,440
reasons they've read the bible and they

621
00:24:29,190 --> 00:24:25,440
think that it's a sin

622
00:24:31,909 --> 00:24:29,200
to lay with another man as they say

623
00:24:33,590 --> 00:24:31,919
is that an appropriate reason to come to

624
00:24:37,190 --> 00:24:33,600
you and you guys will

625
00:24:39,029 --> 00:24:37,200
um provide them services for that reason

626
00:24:40,549 --> 00:24:39,039
i think we would have to be sure that

627
00:24:42,710 --> 00:24:40,559
that is a personal

628
00:24:44,710 --> 00:24:42,720
conviction that's held by the person

629
00:24:47,750 --> 00:24:44,720
that we're talking to

630
00:24:50,710 --> 00:24:47,760
but surely we have to be

631
00:24:52,470 --> 00:24:50,720
sensitive to a person's worldview we

632
00:24:56,470 --> 00:24:52,480
have to understand what the kind of

633
00:24:58,710 --> 00:24:56,480
primary values are that a person holds

634
00:25:00,230 --> 00:24:58,720
because these are very important for

635
00:25:02,710 --> 00:25:00,240
some people

636
00:25:03,269 --> 00:25:02,720
those values are more primary than the

637
00:25:06,870 --> 00:25:03,279
sexual

638
00:25:09,029 --> 00:25:06,880
urges they you know we know that there

639
00:25:12,630 --> 00:25:09,039
are people in this world who can

640
00:25:16,950 --> 00:25:12,640
live uh chaste lives and

641
00:25:18,950 --> 00:25:16,960
who live above these very human feelings

642
00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:18,960
because they're so convinced that that's

643
00:25:21,830 --> 00:25:20,320
what they should do that's their

644
00:25:23,430 --> 00:25:21,840
personal conviction

645
00:25:26,070 --> 00:25:23,440
so if they come with a religious

646
00:25:27,750 --> 00:25:26,080
conviction then i think we need to take

647
00:25:30,149 --> 00:25:27,760
that into account but we have to

648
00:25:31,430 --> 00:25:30,159
we have to be careful to make sure you

649
00:25:33,269 --> 00:25:31,440
know that this is not something

650
00:25:34,950 --> 00:25:33,279
oppressive but this is something that

651
00:25:37,669 --> 00:25:34,960
they voluntarily

652
00:25:38,950 --> 00:25:37,679
take on board if there's a priest or a

653
00:25:41,510 --> 00:25:38,960
pastor

654
00:25:42,149 --> 00:25:41,520
that is directing them to us well that's

655
00:25:45,990 --> 00:25:42,159
a different

656
00:25:47,669 --> 00:25:46,000
cattle official that 50

657
00:25:49,029 --> 00:25:47,679
of the people who do come in my

658
00:25:51,430 --> 00:25:49,039
direction

659
00:25:53,909 --> 00:25:51,440
either come from other faith or no faith

660
00:25:56,710 --> 00:25:53,919
backgrounds

661
00:25:57,669 --> 00:25:56,720
yeah i mean i mean religious freedom is

662
00:26:00,549 --> 00:25:57,679
essential

663
00:26:02,549 --> 00:26:00,559
i know it is in america i assume it is

664
00:26:04,390 --> 00:26:02,559
maybe not to as great an extent in the

665
00:26:05,590 --> 00:26:04,400
uk but you but religious freedom is

666
00:26:07,990 --> 00:26:05,600
something that everyone seems to

667
00:26:12,390 --> 00:26:08,000
recognize as an important

668
00:26:15,269 --> 00:26:12,400
value um so if someone is coming there

669
00:26:16,230 --> 00:26:15,279
uh because they want to adhere to their

670
00:26:20,950 --> 00:26:16,240
religious

671
00:26:24,070 --> 00:26:20,960
faith that should be protected right

672
00:26:28,149 --> 00:26:24,080
absolutely it should be i really like

673
00:26:30,070 --> 00:26:28,159
what the um us group the alliance for

674
00:26:33,590 --> 00:26:30,080
therapeutic choice

675
00:26:36,630 --> 00:26:33,600
and scientific integrity uh teach

676
00:26:39,669 --> 00:26:36,640
they talk about safety sexual attraction

677
00:26:42,870 --> 00:26:39,679
fluidity exploration in therapy

678
00:26:47,190 --> 00:26:42,880
and that's in essence what we do we

679
00:26:49,510 --> 00:26:47,200
explore the fact that sexuality is fluid

680
00:26:51,029 --> 00:26:49,520
we don't hold with the idea that gender

681
00:26:55,029 --> 00:26:51,039
is fluid

682
00:26:57,269 --> 00:26:55,039
but many of us testify to the fact that

683
00:26:58,470 --> 00:26:57,279
you know sexuality can be all over the

684
00:27:00,310 --> 00:26:58,480
place

685
00:27:01,750 --> 00:27:00,320
and we have to learn how to discipline

686
00:27:03,430 --> 00:27:01,760
it we have to learn

687
00:27:05,750 --> 00:27:03,440
how to make sure it goes in the

688
00:27:06,549 --> 00:27:05,760
direction that we want it to go in so

689
00:27:10,630 --> 00:27:06,559
that we're not

690
00:27:12,230 --> 00:27:10,640
you know victim of our own desires

691
00:27:14,789 --> 00:27:12,240
yeah i mean certainly we recognize

692
00:27:17,750 --> 00:27:14,799
treatments for sexual addiction

693
00:27:18,789 --> 00:27:17,760
for sexual uh perversions for all kinds

694
00:27:22,630 --> 00:27:18,799
of things related

695
00:27:23,669 --> 00:27:22,640
to sexuality but the left wants to then

696
00:27:26,070 --> 00:27:23,679
draw a line

697
00:27:27,510 --> 00:27:26,080
and say that yep you can counsel about

698
00:27:30,230 --> 00:27:27,520
all those things

699
00:27:31,029 --> 00:27:30,240
but don't counsel somebody to reduce

700
00:27:34,549 --> 00:27:31,039
feelings of

701
00:27:37,029 --> 00:27:34,559
attraction to the same sex

702
00:27:38,230 --> 00:27:37,039
i think that this is maybe the product

703
00:27:41,669 --> 00:27:38,240
of the kind of

704
00:27:44,710 --> 00:27:41,679
binary model that the lgbt

705
00:27:47,029 --> 00:27:44,720
activists i think successfully

706
00:27:47,990 --> 00:27:47,039
convinced us all about this idea that

707
00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:48,000
the world is made

708
00:27:52,870 --> 00:27:51,440
up of straight and gay and a few buys in

709
00:27:55,909 --> 00:27:52,880
between

710
00:27:59,269 --> 00:27:55,919
but in reality there are many people who

711
00:27:59,990 --> 00:27:59,279
are mostly heterosexual but they are not

712
00:28:03,190 --> 00:28:00,000
totally

713
00:28:04,470 --> 00:28:03,200
heterosexual so my question is if that

714
00:28:06,710 --> 00:28:04,480
is the case

715
00:28:08,070 --> 00:28:06,720
why is it that we are privileging only

716
00:28:10,789 --> 00:28:08,080
those who want to be

717
00:28:12,149 --> 00:28:10,799
homosexual and want to find you know

718
00:28:15,350 --> 00:28:12,159
completion for

719
00:28:19,190 --> 00:28:15,360
the homosexual side of themselves why

720
00:28:21,510 --> 00:28:19,200
are we discriminating against those who

721
00:28:22,070 --> 00:28:21,520
recognize that they have a homosexual

722
00:28:24,230 --> 00:28:22,080
side

723
00:28:25,590 --> 00:28:24,240
but they want to maximize their

724
00:28:27,750 --> 00:28:25,600
heterosexual side

725
00:28:29,190 --> 00:28:27,760
that's what's being made illegal in

726
00:28:31,590 --> 00:28:29,200
these countries

727
00:28:33,430 --> 00:28:31,600
and i don't think it makes sense it

728
00:28:36,470 --> 00:28:33,440
doesn't recognize

729
00:28:37,269 --> 00:28:36,480
human experience that shows without

730
00:28:40,870 --> 00:28:37,279
doubt

731
00:28:44,310 --> 00:28:40,880
that human sexuality is fluid

732
00:28:46,789 --> 00:28:44,320
on your wikipedia page it states uh

733
00:28:47,830 --> 00:28:46,799
referring this is the core issues trust

734
00:28:51,190 --> 00:28:47,840
organization

735
00:28:52,870 --> 00:28:51,200
which you run correct

736
00:28:55,269 --> 00:28:52,880
on the wikipedia page it says core

737
00:28:58,070 --> 00:28:55,279
issues trust states it believes

738
00:28:58,549 --> 00:28:58,080
human sexuality is in both men and women

739
00:29:02,389 --> 00:28:58,559
is a

740
00:29:05,110 --> 00:29:02,399
choice is that accurate

741
00:29:07,350 --> 00:29:05,120
no james it isn't accurate and that

742
00:29:09,590 --> 00:29:07,360
changed within the last three months

743
00:29:10,950 --> 00:29:09,600
when this very concerted and well

744
00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:10,960
orchestrated

745
00:29:14,470 --> 00:29:13,440
campaign began all of a sudden the

746
00:29:18,230 --> 00:29:14,480
wikipedia

747
00:29:20,310 --> 00:29:18,240
page was changed everything that was

748
00:29:21,269 --> 00:29:20,320
there that had been built up was taken

749
00:29:23,190 --> 00:29:21,279
down

750
00:29:26,070 --> 00:29:23,200
and it basically says that we are

751
00:29:28,470 --> 00:29:26,080
proponents of conversion therapy

752
00:29:29,350 --> 00:29:28,480
this is you know this is a pejorative

753
00:29:31,750 --> 00:29:29,360
term

754
00:29:34,710 --> 00:29:31,760
we want nothing to do with it our

755
00:29:37,110 --> 00:29:34,720
attempts to change the wikipedia page

756
00:29:39,269 --> 00:29:37,120
have failed we just haven't been able to

757
00:29:40,630 --> 00:29:39,279
do it yeah wikipedia is another thing

758
00:29:42,070 --> 00:29:40,640
that's really important you don't hear

759
00:29:43,750 --> 00:29:42,080
as much about wikipedia as you do

760
00:29:46,070 --> 00:29:43,760
facebook and instagram

761
00:29:47,350 --> 00:29:46,080
but it's just as important i mean when

762
00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:47,360
you do a google search

763
00:29:50,870 --> 00:29:48,880
one of the first things that pops up is

764
00:29:53,269 --> 00:29:50,880
always the wikipedia page

765
00:29:54,389 --> 00:29:53,279
and for the most part people trusted i

766
00:29:56,389 --> 00:29:54,399
have always generally

767
00:29:58,070 --> 00:29:56,399
trusted it but you got to start

768
00:29:59,350 --> 00:29:58,080
wondering now oh my gosh

769
00:30:02,710 --> 00:29:59,360
is this the next thing we got to be

770
00:30:05,430 --> 00:30:02,720
concerned about is

771
00:30:06,789 --> 00:30:05,440
this these type of ideologies infecting

772
00:30:07,990 --> 00:30:06,799
wikipedia so

773
00:30:09,269 --> 00:30:08,000
sticking with that issue because it

774
00:30:10,630 --> 00:30:09,279
stuck out at me because i had a feeling

775
00:30:12,549 --> 00:30:10,640
you were going to say no that that

776
00:30:16,149 --> 00:30:12,559
homosexuality is not

777
00:30:17,669 --> 00:30:16,159
a choice and that's the lgbt community

778
00:30:19,029 --> 00:30:17,679
likes to pigeonhole you into they say

779
00:30:20,710 --> 00:30:19,039
well

780
00:30:22,549 --> 00:30:20,720
either it's born this way or it's a

781
00:30:24,470 --> 00:30:22,559
choice and

782
00:30:27,510 --> 00:30:24,480
they say come on who would choose this

783
00:30:29,750 --> 00:30:27,520
lifestyle obviously it's not a choice

784
00:30:31,430 --> 00:30:29,760
therefore you must be born this way and

785
00:30:34,630 --> 00:30:31,440
they forget the middle

786
00:30:36,070 --> 00:30:34,640
ground which is no it's not a choice but

787
00:30:36,950 --> 00:30:36,080
you're not born this way it's something

788
00:30:40,389 --> 00:30:36,960
that happens in

789
00:30:42,470 --> 00:30:40,399
early childhood development and there's

790
00:30:43,830 --> 00:30:42,480
lots of studies and lots of research and

791
00:30:47,110 --> 00:30:43,840
lots of evidence

792
00:30:49,590 --> 00:30:47,120
that's that that proves or

793
00:30:50,310 --> 00:30:49,600
seems to prove that early childhood

794
00:30:52,950 --> 00:30:50,320
development

795
00:30:53,430 --> 00:30:52,960
including traumas are the things that

796
00:30:56,870 --> 00:30:53,440
can

797
00:30:59,990 --> 00:30:56,880
lead to um homosexuality

798
00:31:03,029 --> 00:31:00,000
and gender dysphoria etc

799
00:31:03,990 --> 00:31:03,039
so that's the area that they don't want

800
00:31:06,389 --> 00:31:04,000
you to talk about

801
00:31:07,990 --> 00:31:06,399
or think about even though that's most

802
00:31:10,070 --> 00:31:08,000
likely where the truth lies

803
00:31:12,549 --> 00:31:10,080
and so that's why they want to say that

804
00:31:16,149 --> 00:31:12,559
you guys believe that human sexuality

805
00:31:19,430 --> 00:31:16,159
is a choice i did not choose the

806
00:31:22,710 --> 00:31:19,440
homosexual feelings that i experienced

807
00:31:23,509 --> 00:31:22,720
but i did come to a point after i'd

808
00:31:26,789 --> 00:31:23,519
married

809
00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:26,799
my wife i came to a point where i

810
00:31:30,710 --> 00:31:27,600
realized

811
00:31:33,909 --> 00:31:30,720
i had choices around those feelings

812
00:31:36,070 --> 00:31:33,919
even though i didn't choose them and my

813
00:31:39,430 --> 00:31:36,080
choice was exercised by

814
00:31:42,470 --> 00:31:39,440
in my case getting professional help

815
00:31:46,149 --> 00:31:42,480
and the thing is james i was given good

816
00:31:48,310 --> 00:31:46,159
professional help they challenged me

817
00:31:50,310 --> 00:31:48,320
but they worked with me but the point is

818
00:31:53,509 --> 00:31:50,320
they respected

819
00:31:55,590 --> 00:31:53,519
my personal autonomy the goals that i

820
00:31:56,710 --> 00:31:55,600
was setting for myself they were willing

821
00:31:58,789 --> 00:31:56,720
to work

822
00:32:00,070 --> 00:31:58,799
with me on that even if they didn't

823
00:32:02,870 --> 00:32:00,080
agree fully

824
00:32:04,230 --> 00:32:02,880
with me they let me do it and because of

825
00:32:06,789 --> 00:32:04,240
that i found

826
00:32:07,509 --> 00:32:06,799
my way out and that's what's changing

827
00:32:11,350 --> 00:32:07,519
now

828
00:32:15,430 --> 00:32:11,360
it's the therapists that are imposing

829
00:32:18,710 --> 00:32:15,440
the therapeutic outcome on clients

830
00:32:19,830 --> 00:32:18,720
they accuse people like myself of being

831
00:32:22,630 --> 00:32:19,840
directive

832
00:32:25,110 --> 00:32:22,640
in our counseling but i'm afraid that is

833
00:32:27,830 --> 00:32:25,120
not the truth we explore

834
00:32:29,190 --> 00:32:27,840
sexual fluidity and we look at the

835
00:32:31,110 --> 00:32:29,200
options

836
00:32:32,310 --> 00:32:31,120
do you want to be gay do you want to go

837
00:32:35,029 --> 00:32:32,320
in that direction

838
00:32:35,669 --> 00:32:35,039
well that's your choice do you want to

839
00:32:38,230 --> 00:32:35,679
be

840
00:32:39,430 --> 00:32:38,240
do you want to go in this direction well

841
00:32:42,710 --> 00:32:39,440
let's work on it

842
00:32:45,830 --> 00:32:42,720
and see where we go there's choice here

843
00:32:47,269 --> 00:32:45,840
and we respect autonomy and we respect

844
00:32:50,230 --> 00:32:47,279
people's goals

845
00:32:51,110 --> 00:32:50,240
but in the new dispensation the only

846
00:32:53,750 --> 00:32:51,120
thing that's on

847
00:32:56,710 --> 00:32:53,760
offer is gay affirming therapy and if

848
00:32:58,870 --> 00:32:56,720
you say you have homosexual feelings

849
00:33:01,029 --> 00:32:58,880
then the you know the simplistic

850
00:33:04,149 --> 00:33:01,039
response is well then you are

851
00:33:05,750 --> 00:33:04,159
gay and if you don't identify as gay

852
00:33:08,070 --> 00:33:05,760
you're being inauthentic

853
00:33:12,149 --> 00:33:08,080
and hypocritical and that's what's got

854
00:33:20,710 --> 00:33:16,630
um tell us the therapy that you

855
00:33:21,990 --> 00:33:20,720
received and you know what what did you

856
00:33:24,549 --> 00:33:22,000
ultimately if you don't mind sharing

857
00:33:26,230 --> 00:33:24,559
what did you ultimately identify was

858
00:33:27,590 --> 00:33:26,240
the the the cause of you having those

859
00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:27,600
feelings

860
00:33:32,950 --> 00:33:30,960
well uh what i would say the therapy

861
00:33:35,029 --> 00:33:32,960
that really helped me ultimately was

862
00:33:36,789 --> 00:33:35,039
about the fact that in each case the

863
00:33:39,750 --> 00:33:36,799
therapist i worked with

864
00:33:41,110 --> 00:33:39,760
worked with was a salient individual

865
00:33:44,789 --> 00:33:41,120
this was somebody

866
00:33:48,070 --> 00:33:44,799
i could respect somebody who i liked

867
00:33:51,350 --> 00:33:48,080
um somebody who i felt you know i

868
00:33:54,149 --> 00:33:51,360
i was inspired by i i could receive

869
00:33:56,070 --> 00:33:54,159
encouragement i could receive challenge

870
00:33:57,430 --> 00:33:56,080
and correction all of those things so

871
00:34:00,630 --> 00:33:57,440
the relationship

872
00:34:03,990 --> 00:34:00,640
was really important for me if you're

873
00:34:06,310 --> 00:34:04,000
asking what caused it in my life

874
00:34:07,909 --> 00:34:06,320
it may be difficult to understand this

875
00:34:11,589 --> 00:34:07,919
and this is just one of the main

876
00:34:11,990 --> 00:34:11,599
factors but i grew up in a household

877
00:34:15,349 --> 00:34:12,000
where

878
00:34:18,790 --> 00:34:15,359
my older brother uh died

879
00:34:21,430 --> 00:34:18,800
before i was born and my family always

880
00:34:23,750 --> 00:34:21,440
referred to him as john

881
00:34:25,190 --> 00:34:23,760
but later in life just before my mother

882
00:34:27,190 --> 00:34:25,200
died she told me

883
00:34:29,349 --> 00:34:27,200
that my brother's name was actually

884
00:34:31,909 --> 00:34:29,359
michael

885
00:34:33,030 --> 00:34:31,919
and it's difficult for for people who

886
00:34:35,750 --> 00:34:33,040
maybe haven't

887
00:34:37,030 --> 00:34:35,760
thought about this but this idea of

888
00:34:40,550 --> 00:34:37,040
being a replacement

889
00:34:44,310 --> 00:34:40,560
child is a really

890
00:34:47,109 --> 00:34:44,320
important factor in this kind of

891
00:34:48,550 --> 00:34:47,119
life that people experience and it seems

892
00:34:51,190 --> 00:34:48,560
like for me

893
00:34:52,550 --> 00:34:51,200
what happened my father was so invested

894
00:34:55,109 --> 00:34:52,560
in his firstborn

895
00:34:56,470 --> 00:34:55,119
but when i came it's kind of like he

896
00:35:03,670 --> 00:34:56,480
gave me to my mother

897
00:35:07,589 --> 00:35:03,680
emotionally now this is not a blame that

898
00:35:11,109 --> 00:35:07,599
emotional barrier it's like he couldn't

899
00:35:13,990 --> 00:35:11,119
quite commit to me and

900
00:35:15,990 --> 00:35:14,000
because of that i i felt i was more

901
00:35:17,750 --> 00:35:16,000
pushed towards my mother and

902
00:35:20,950 --> 00:35:17,760
actually that's what happened there was

903
00:35:23,670 --> 00:35:20,960
a feminizing process

904
00:35:24,790 --> 00:35:23,680
i was confident around males i was

905
00:35:28,470 --> 00:35:24,800
underconfident

906
00:35:30,069 --> 00:35:28,480
around men and boys

907
00:35:31,829 --> 00:35:30,079
yeah sorry you're saying you're

908
00:35:34,390 --> 00:35:31,839
confident around females and not

909
00:35:36,150 --> 00:35:34,400
confident around males

910
00:35:38,150 --> 00:35:36,160
that's that's it that's what happened

911
00:35:41,589 --> 00:35:38,160
and because of that

912
00:35:44,230 --> 00:35:41,599
you know femininity was not mysterious

913
00:35:45,990 --> 00:35:44,240
masculinity was mysterious and because

914
00:35:49,829 --> 00:35:46,000
because it was mysterious

915
00:35:53,510 --> 00:35:49,839
i was drawn to that so when puberty hits

916
00:35:56,230 --> 00:35:53,520
you know this becomes sexualized

917
00:35:58,470 --> 00:35:56,240
and it feels very natural to be drawn

918
00:36:00,950 --> 00:35:58,480
towards the same sex because you know

919
00:36:03,829 --> 00:36:00,960
all about the opposite sex

920
00:36:05,109 --> 00:36:03,839
and then the problem is you really think

921
00:36:08,710 --> 00:36:05,119
your problem is going to be

922
00:36:11,990 --> 00:36:08,720
solved by a sexual encounter

923
00:36:14,310 --> 00:36:12,000
but lo and behold that might even happen

924
00:36:15,910 --> 00:36:14,320
and then the recognition comes for many

925
00:36:18,630 --> 00:36:15,920
not everyone

926
00:36:19,190 --> 00:36:18,640
that actually it's not a sexual problem

927
00:36:23,270 --> 00:36:19,200
it's

928
00:36:26,310 --> 00:36:23,280
need for connection

929
00:36:29,430 --> 00:36:26,320
and identity with masculinity

930
00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:29,440
that is trying to find fulfillment

931
00:36:34,230 --> 00:36:32,400
by going in this direction and people in

932
00:36:35,589 --> 00:36:34,240
this position feel as though it's going

933
00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:35,599
to be resolved

934
00:36:40,150 --> 00:36:38,640
sexually when in fact it's it's kind of

935
00:36:43,349 --> 00:36:40,160
a mirage

936
00:36:46,950 --> 00:36:43,359
because underneath that sexual desire is

937
00:36:50,230 --> 00:36:46,960
actually um an emotional

938
00:36:51,190 --> 00:36:50,240
desire and longing that is needing to be

939
00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:51,200
satisfied

940
00:36:54,950 --> 00:36:54,720
and isn't so you know how to deal with

941
00:36:58,550 --> 00:36:54,960
it

942
00:37:02,550 --> 00:36:58,560
issue

943
00:37:05,510 --> 00:37:02,560
and and and to you know move away

944
00:37:08,310 --> 00:37:05,520
from the sexual behaviors because they

945
00:37:10,630 --> 00:37:08,320
aren't going to solve the problem

946
00:37:11,430 --> 00:37:10,640
and how were you able to deal with the

947
00:37:13,910 --> 00:37:11,440
emotional

948
00:37:15,910 --> 00:37:13,920
issue what was the therapy that allowed

949
00:37:17,109 --> 00:37:15,920
you to recognize all the things that you

950
00:37:20,310 --> 00:37:17,119
just

951
00:37:22,150 --> 00:37:20,320
said and and move past them

952
00:37:24,310 --> 00:37:22,160
you know simple things like

953
00:37:26,550 --> 00:37:24,320
assertiveness training

954
00:37:27,990 --> 00:37:26,560
so i had been a very compliant

955
00:37:30,230 --> 00:37:28,000
individual

956
00:37:32,470 --> 00:37:30,240
and i think it was kind of an attempt to

957
00:37:35,349 --> 00:37:32,480
make sure nobody ever

958
00:37:35,990 --> 00:37:35,359
knew what i really thought so i was yes

959
00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:36,000
for the yes

960
00:37:39,109 --> 00:37:38,640
people are no for the no people and i

961
00:37:45,430 --> 00:37:39,119
was

962
00:37:47,430 --> 00:37:45,440
um until i learned you know the

963
00:37:48,870 --> 00:37:47,440
importance of assertiveness and the

964
00:37:52,310 --> 00:37:48,880
important

965
00:37:55,030 --> 00:37:52,320
the importance of knowing who i was

966
00:37:56,550 --> 00:37:55,040
that i had an identity that is relevant

967
00:37:58,950 --> 00:37:56,560
and significant

968
00:38:00,150 --> 00:37:58,960
in this world i have a contribution to

969
00:38:03,190 --> 00:38:00,160
make

970
00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:03,200
and you know i can stand shoulder to

971
00:38:06,630 --> 00:38:04,160
shoulder

972
00:38:07,910 --> 00:38:06,640
with other human beings and argue my

973
00:38:10,390 --> 00:38:07,920
case those

974
00:38:11,109 --> 00:38:10,400
are the kind of social skills that i had

975
00:38:13,270 --> 00:38:11,119
to learn

976
00:38:14,390 --> 00:38:13,280
and you can't learn all of that from a

977
00:38:16,870 --> 00:38:14,400
therapist

978
00:38:17,589 --> 00:38:16,880
so there was a lot of work that i had to

979
00:38:20,470 --> 00:38:17,599
do

980
00:38:21,990 --> 00:38:20,480
but i was i received good training and

981
00:38:24,069 --> 00:38:22,000
inspiration and then

982
00:38:25,829 --> 00:38:24,079
you know there's a spiritual dimension

983
00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:25,839
to this as well so

984
00:38:29,829 --> 00:38:28,800
because i journeyed as a christian i

985
00:38:32,390 --> 00:38:29,839
discovered

986
00:38:34,870 --> 00:38:32,400
you know i made an amazing discovery

987
00:38:38,390 --> 00:38:34,880
that there are men in this world

988
00:38:42,390 --> 00:38:38,400
who are sensitive beings and

989
00:38:42,950 --> 00:38:42,400
you know um are willing to interact with

990
00:38:46,150 --> 00:38:42,960
you

991
00:38:47,990 --> 00:38:46,160
and their motive is not sexual it's just

992
00:38:50,870 --> 00:38:48,000
they want to have a good time

993
00:38:51,750 --> 00:38:50,880
or they actually do want to get to know

994
00:38:55,589 --> 00:38:51,760
you

995
00:38:57,670 --> 00:38:55,599
and and when i discovered that reality

996
00:39:00,790 --> 00:38:57,680
it's kind of like the penny began to

997
00:39:03,670 --> 00:39:00,800
drop and i no longer saw myself

998
00:39:04,230 --> 00:39:03,680
as different and i began to see myself

999
00:39:08,069 --> 00:39:04,240
as

1000
00:39:11,109 --> 00:39:08,079
you know part of the the tribe of

1001
00:39:11,670 --> 00:39:11,119
of of men and you get different kinds of

1002
00:39:14,630 --> 00:39:11,680
men

1003
00:39:15,670 --> 00:39:14,640
but i fitted there and that confidence

1004
00:39:18,870 --> 00:39:15,680
so that

1005
00:39:22,390 --> 00:39:18,880
you know the loss of low self-esteem

1006
00:39:24,950 --> 00:39:22,400
that determination to be assertive

1007
00:39:26,550 --> 00:39:24,960
um those things made a huge difference

1008
00:39:34,230 --> 00:39:26,560
in my life

1009
00:39:39,109 --> 00:39:37,030
to be honest it was more forgiving my

1010
00:39:41,030 --> 00:39:39,119
mother

1011
00:39:42,870 --> 00:39:41,040
and i know this is going to fall into

1012
00:39:46,150 --> 00:39:42,880
the trap of this

1013
00:39:49,510 --> 00:39:46,160
caricature of dominant mother and

1014
00:39:50,230 --> 00:39:49,520
absent father i'm just trying to share

1015
00:39:54,630 --> 00:39:50,240
how it was

1016
00:39:57,190 --> 00:39:54,640
in my face in my family my mom

1017
00:39:57,670 --> 00:39:57,200
she was a great mum don't get me wrong

1018
00:40:01,030 --> 00:39:57,680
both

1019
00:40:04,390 --> 00:40:01,040
of my parents were wonderful people

1020
00:40:06,950 --> 00:40:04,400
but there was something too close

1021
00:40:08,390 --> 00:40:06,960
between my father and between my mother

1022
00:40:12,710 --> 00:40:08,400
and myself

1023
00:40:15,750 --> 00:40:12,720
it it kind of uh intruded

1024
00:40:17,990 --> 00:40:15,760
um and it brought some resentment

1025
00:40:19,190 --> 00:40:18,000
that i experienced and again it was

1026
00:40:22,309 --> 00:40:19,200
about assertion

1027
00:40:25,109 --> 00:40:22,319
getting to the point where you know

1028
00:40:25,990 --> 00:40:25,119
i had to i had to know the boundaries

1029
00:40:28,230 --> 00:40:26,000
between who i

1030
00:40:29,990 --> 00:40:28,240
am who my mother is i'm not there to

1031
00:40:32,870 --> 00:40:30,000
take care of my mother

1032
00:40:34,309 --> 00:40:32,880
i'm not i'm not there to i'm i'm you

1033
00:40:36,790 --> 00:40:34,319
know they are my parents

1034
00:40:38,309 --> 00:40:36,800
she is my mother she is my father i am

1035
00:40:40,230 --> 00:40:38,319
who i am

1036
00:40:41,510 --> 00:40:40,240
learning those roles was really

1037
00:40:45,990 --> 00:40:41,520
important it sounds

1038
00:40:49,349 --> 00:40:46,000
very simplistic i know but i needed that

1039
00:40:52,550 --> 00:40:49,359
and why did you seek the counseling to

1040
00:40:56,550 --> 00:40:52,560
begin with what what were you why did

1041
00:41:00,630 --> 00:40:59,829
um as a young man i was called to the

1042
00:41:03,910 --> 00:41:00,640
ministry

1043
00:41:07,349 --> 00:41:03,920
i answered that call i started training

1044
00:41:08,309 --> 00:41:07,359
as a minister and then there was an

1045
00:41:11,910 --> 00:41:08,319
experience

1046
00:41:14,950 --> 00:41:11,920
that wasn't full-on sexual but

1047
00:41:17,750 --> 00:41:14,960
showed me that there was a i guess a

1048
00:41:19,349 --> 00:41:17,760
propensity within myself that i was not

1049
00:41:21,670 --> 00:41:19,359
comfortable with

1050
00:41:24,470 --> 00:41:21,680
so i did the classical thing and tried

1051
00:41:27,589 --> 00:41:24,480
to just repress it

1052
00:41:28,230 --> 00:41:27,599
cut a long story short i genuinely fell

1053
00:41:31,270 --> 00:41:28,240
in love

1054
00:41:32,870 --> 00:41:31,280
with the woman i am still married to 42

1055
00:41:35,910 --> 00:41:32,880
years later

1056
00:41:36,829 --> 00:41:35,920
we married we had our children but there

1057
00:41:40,550 --> 00:41:36,839
was something

1058
00:41:41,270 --> 00:41:40,560
unresolved in my life and it just got to

1059
00:41:45,030 --> 00:41:41,280
a point

1060
00:41:47,430 --> 00:41:45,040
where i realized i had choices to make

1061
00:41:48,230 --> 00:41:47,440
and i needed to do something and as a

1062
00:41:50,790 --> 00:41:48,240
family

1063
00:41:52,550 --> 00:41:50,800
you know because my wife knew about my

1064
00:41:55,829 --> 00:41:52,560
situation

1065
00:41:59,109 --> 00:41:55,839
we knew as a family that i needed

1066
00:42:02,230 --> 00:41:59,119
to get help you know

1067
00:42:03,990 --> 00:42:02,240
i grew up in a at a in a place and at a

1068
00:42:06,150 --> 00:42:04,000
time where

1069
00:42:07,990 --> 00:42:06,160
it wasn't a done thing to talk about

1070
00:42:11,030 --> 00:42:08,000
these things it was difficult

1071
00:42:14,630 --> 00:42:11,040
to talk about these things and so

1072
00:42:17,829 --> 00:42:14,640
um you know i didn't make progress

1073
00:42:19,589 --> 00:42:17,839
until i reached out and i asked for help

1074
00:42:21,750 --> 00:42:19,599
and that's my fear

1075
00:42:23,750 --> 00:42:21,760
that is being denied to whole

1076
00:42:26,550 --> 00:42:23,760
generations today

1077
00:42:27,589 --> 00:42:26,560
they're not allowed to ask for help they

1078
00:42:29,750 --> 00:42:27,599
simply have to

1079
00:42:30,630 --> 00:42:29,760
certainly in great britain they simply

1080
00:42:33,910 --> 00:42:30,640
have to

1081
00:42:36,950 --> 00:42:33,920
accept the fact that they are gay no it

1082
00:42:38,870 --> 00:42:36,960
reminds me of of underground abortions

1083
00:42:41,030 --> 00:42:38,880
that that's where we're heading with

1084
00:42:43,829 --> 00:42:41,040
this that you you would need to

1085
00:42:45,910 --> 00:42:43,839
meet in secret in a basement to talk

1086
00:42:49,270 --> 00:42:45,920
about this

1087
00:42:52,309 --> 00:42:49,280
exactly so i was put out of

1088
00:42:54,390 --> 00:42:52,319
um the british psychodrama association

1089
00:42:57,430 --> 00:42:54,400
because they felt my views

1090
00:42:58,309 --> 00:42:57,440
on homosexuality were not correct i went

1091
00:43:01,829 --> 00:42:58,319
through an appeal

1092
00:43:04,230 --> 00:43:01,839
process i was on a bbc

1093
00:43:06,710 --> 00:43:04,240
program before i left the studio i was

1094
00:43:07,750 --> 00:43:06,720
told i was under investigation a year

1095
00:43:11,349 --> 00:43:07,760
later

1096
00:43:12,150 --> 00:43:11,359
i had lost my right to complete my

1097
00:43:14,710 --> 00:43:12,160
training

1098
00:43:15,750 --> 00:43:14,720
they said that i could come back if i

1099
00:43:20,550 --> 00:43:15,760
changed

1100
00:43:23,829 --> 00:43:20,560
my ideas about homosexuality

1101
00:43:26,470 --> 00:43:23,839
um that's where it's gone

1102
00:43:27,190 --> 00:43:26,480
in this country that you could come back

1103
00:43:39,109 --> 00:43:27,200
to

1104
00:43:43,829 --> 00:43:42,150
modality that i was interested in doing

1105
00:43:47,190 --> 00:43:43,839
my point in mentioning it

1106
00:43:47,670 --> 00:43:47,200
is you know it's kind of a thought crime

1107
00:43:49,990 --> 00:43:47,680
thing

1108
00:43:52,309 --> 00:43:50,000
if you don't think the right thoughts i

1109
00:43:56,190 --> 00:43:52,319
submitted a 40-page

1110
00:43:58,630 --> 00:43:56,200
document about why i believed

1111
00:43:59,750 --> 00:43:58,640
homosexuality is something that needs to

1112
00:44:02,870 --> 00:43:59,760
be

1113
00:44:06,950 --> 00:44:02,880
um you know have a response

1114
00:44:09,750 --> 00:44:06,960
therapeutically to i never got an answer

1115
00:44:11,190 --> 00:44:09,760
you know i i think and they could have

1116
00:44:13,910 --> 00:44:11,200
said your science

1117
00:44:15,750 --> 00:44:13,920
really is not up to scratch or you know

1118
00:44:18,950 --> 00:44:15,760
you don't understand

1119
00:44:22,230 --> 00:44:18,960
methodology or you've miscited things

1120
00:44:24,230 --> 00:44:22,240
none of that they simply ignored it

1121
00:44:26,390 --> 00:44:24,240
because we're not dealing with science

1122
00:44:29,430 --> 00:44:26,400
we're dealing with ideology

1123
00:44:29,750 --> 00:44:29,440
in this country not just your country

1124
00:44:33,510 --> 00:44:29,760
but

1125
00:44:35,829 --> 00:44:33,520
kind of jotting down

1126
00:44:37,349 --> 00:44:35,839
that there's a number of reasons why

1127
00:44:40,710 --> 00:44:37,359
someone may want to

1128
00:44:41,750 --> 00:44:40,720
who has homosexual proclivities may want

1129
00:44:45,030 --> 00:44:41,760
to

1130
00:44:47,430 --> 00:44:45,040
them so we talked about

1131
00:44:48,710 --> 00:44:47,440
religious reasons you know some people

1132
00:44:52,069 --> 00:44:48,720
might scoff at that

1133
00:44:54,230 --> 00:44:52,079
and say oh my gosh you know you're uh

1134
00:44:55,109 --> 00:44:54,240
using the bible to shame gays or

1135
00:44:57,750 --> 00:44:55,119
whatever but

1136
00:44:59,109 --> 00:44:57,760
you know again religious freedom is

1137
00:45:01,670 --> 00:44:59,119
important

1138
00:45:02,870 --> 00:45:01,680
i don't happen to subscribe to the idea

1139
00:45:04,150 --> 00:45:02,880
that there's a god that

1140
00:45:06,950 --> 00:45:04,160
is paying attention to what your

1141
00:45:08,150 --> 00:45:06,960
sexuality is or or would judge you based

1142
00:45:12,069 --> 00:45:08,160
on that but that's my

1143
00:45:15,030 --> 00:45:12,079
personal view there's you know there's

1144
00:45:15,349 --> 00:45:15,040
christians and and jews and muslims etc

1145
00:45:18,710 --> 00:45:15,359
that

1146
00:45:21,750 --> 00:45:18,720
choose to follow

1147
00:45:23,670 --> 00:45:21,760
um those religious practices so

1148
00:45:25,670 --> 00:45:23,680
religious reasons are a legitimate one

1149
00:45:27,750 --> 00:45:25,680
this would prohibit somebody for getting

1150
00:45:31,589 --> 00:45:27,760
treatment for religious reasons

1151
00:45:34,470 --> 00:45:31,599
um you could have a family

1152
00:45:36,150 --> 00:45:34,480
loving wife and children but be having

1153
00:45:39,349 --> 00:45:36,160
these urges

1154
00:45:41,750 --> 00:45:39,359
to be with a man and it would destroy

1155
00:45:42,710 --> 00:45:41,760
your family your relationship etc for

1156
00:45:44,710 --> 00:45:42,720
that to take place

1157
00:45:46,150 --> 00:45:44,720
so you want to reduce those feelings

1158
00:45:47,589 --> 00:45:46,160
because you love your wife and you love

1159
00:45:51,109 --> 00:45:47,599
your children you want to maintain

1160
00:45:53,670 --> 00:45:51,119
your family you wouldn't be able to go

1161
00:45:56,710 --> 00:45:53,680
for any type of therapy for that reason

1162
00:46:01,510 --> 00:45:59,750
for some they might just choose you

1163
00:46:03,430 --> 00:46:01,520
might not be married but they might just

1164
00:46:05,030 --> 00:46:03,440
say that you know i prefer to live to

1165
00:46:07,109 --> 00:46:05,040
live a straight

1166
00:46:09,030 --> 00:46:07,119
lifestyle i would like to have

1167
00:46:12,069 --> 00:46:09,040
biological children

1168
00:46:14,150 --> 00:46:12,079
with a spouse um and raise

1169
00:46:15,910 --> 00:46:14,160
a child with a loving mother and a

1170
00:46:19,190 --> 00:46:15,920
father just

1171
00:46:21,349 --> 00:46:19,200
they choose to want that and therefore

1172
00:46:22,870 --> 00:46:21,359
it seems to me perfectly legitimate to

1173
00:46:26,829 --> 00:46:22,880
get therapy for that

1174
00:46:29,589 --> 00:46:26,839
and then a fourth reason is um just a

1175
00:46:30,790 --> 00:46:29,599
general mental stability that they might

1176
00:46:32,390 --> 00:46:30,800
be struggling

1177
00:46:33,990 --> 00:46:32,400
with this and uncomfortable with this

1178
00:46:34,710 --> 00:46:34,000
and and having these thoughts and not

1179
00:46:36,069 --> 00:46:34,720
knowing how to

1180
00:46:37,750 --> 00:46:36,079
deal with them or think about them or

1181
00:46:38,630 --> 00:46:37,760
whatever and wondering where they come

1182
00:46:40,550 --> 00:46:38,640
from and

1183
00:46:42,630 --> 00:46:40,560
why am i having these thoughts and so on

1184
00:46:44,870 --> 00:46:42,640
i mean as you talked about

1185
00:46:46,309 --> 00:46:44,880
you know there's childhood traumas that

1186
00:46:48,069 --> 00:46:46,319
can cause

1187
00:46:49,670 --> 00:46:48,079
this and dealing with underlying

1188
00:46:51,030 --> 00:46:49,680
childhood traumas no matter what they

1189
00:46:54,630 --> 00:46:51,040
may cause

1190
00:46:57,510 --> 00:46:54,640
later getting treatment as an adult

1191
00:46:59,030 --> 00:46:57,520
for traumas that you experience as a

1192
00:47:01,270 --> 00:46:59,040
child is it a very important

1193
00:47:04,950 --> 00:47:01,280
type of therapy i mean it's a very

1194
00:47:08,870 --> 00:47:06,950
and what about the person who has

1195
00:47:12,470 --> 00:47:08,880
experienced abuse

1196
00:47:15,430 --> 00:47:12,480
and and knows that as a result of that

1197
00:47:18,550 --> 00:47:15,440
they became confused and then went in

1198
00:47:21,670 --> 00:47:18,560
this direction towards homosexuality

1199
00:47:23,270 --> 00:47:21,680
that they later regretted what are we

1200
00:47:26,710 --> 00:47:23,280
honestly saying

1201
00:47:29,670 --> 00:47:26,720
that we are going to deny them access

1202
00:47:30,870 --> 00:47:29,680
to professional help that might change

1203
00:47:33,990 --> 00:47:30,880
them

1204
00:47:36,230 --> 00:47:34,000
at the moment in the uk you know it

1205
00:47:39,349 --> 00:47:36,240
doesn't matter for what reason

1206
00:47:40,630 --> 00:47:39,359
if you seek to change somebody's sexual

1207
00:47:43,270 --> 00:47:40,640
orientation

1208
00:47:44,710 --> 00:47:43,280
this is an ethical offense this is

1209
00:47:47,109 --> 00:47:44,720
poorly thought out

1210
00:47:49,430 --> 00:47:47,119
in terms of leg the the only possible

1211
00:47:50,790 --> 00:47:49,440
defense for it in my view and even this

1212
00:47:52,549 --> 00:47:50,800
i'm not sure would be a full defense

1213
00:47:53,349 --> 00:47:52,559
would be if it was absolutely proven

1214
00:47:55,829 --> 00:47:53,359
that you're

1215
00:47:56,790 --> 00:47:55,839
born this way that it's not in your head

1216
00:47:59,510 --> 00:47:56,800
that it's

1217
00:48:01,270 --> 00:47:59,520
something else and you're born this way

1218
00:48:02,790 --> 00:48:01,280
and therefore

1219
00:48:04,390 --> 00:48:02,800
no therapy is going to change how you're

1220
00:48:05,670 --> 00:48:04,400
born this way but again as we've talked

1221
00:48:07,430 --> 00:48:05,680
about

1222
00:48:09,270 --> 00:48:07,440
in my view it seems to be proven that

1223
00:48:11,510 --> 00:48:09,280
you're not born this way

1224
00:48:12,390 --> 00:48:11,520
so there's there's absolutely no basis

1225
00:48:17,270 --> 00:48:12,400
at all

1226
00:48:23,829 --> 00:48:20,630
often critics will tell us that

1227
00:48:26,950 --> 00:48:23,839
um you know this is not a disease

1228
00:48:29,750 --> 00:48:26,960
so it doesn't need to be cured but

1229
00:48:31,750 --> 00:48:29,760
you know it's it's a false argument i

1230
00:48:33,829 --> 00:48:31,760
may be grieving

1231
00:48:35,030 --> 00:48:33,839
and i may seek the help of a

1232
00:48:36,870 --> 00:48:35,040
professional

1233
00:48:38,790 --> 00:48:36,880
to get through that or i may be

1234
00:48:42,230 --> 00:48:38,800
struggling with

1235
00:48:44,630 --> 00:48:42,240
you know a syndrome that is not

1236
00:48:46,790 --> 00:48:44,640
a mental health issue in the sense that

1237
00:48:49,589 --> 00:48:46,800
it is a disease or mental

1238
00:48:50,549 --> 00:48:49,599
health issue from that point of view but

1239
00:48:53,750 --> 00:48:50,559
it simply

1240
00:48:55,990 --> 00:48:53,760
needs guidance and help from somebody

1241
00:48:57,829 --> 00:48:56,000
and i think this is a similar thing i

1242
00:48:58,790 --> 00:48:57,839
don't see these people who come through

1243
00:49:01,829 --> 00:48:58,800
my door

1244
00:49:03,190 --> 00:49:01,839
as being diseased i see these people as

1245
00:49:06,390 --> 00:49:03,200
having very

1246
00:49:08,069 --> 00:49:06,400
human aspirations and goals

1247
00:49:10,470 --> 00:49:08,079
and they want to explore the

1248
00:49:13,270 --> 00:49:10,480
possibilities around these

1249
00:49:14,069 --> 00:49:13,280
goals and i think we need to take them

1250
00:49:16,230 --> 00:49:14,079
seriously

1251
00:49:17,270 --> 00:49:16,240
we need to see them as autonomous

1252
00:49:20,790 --> 00:49:17,280
individual

1253
00:49:21,829 --> 00:49:20,800
and respect their goals and no therapist

1254
00:49:24,870 --> 00:49:21,839
and frankly no

1255
00:49:28,150 --> 00:49:24,880
government should be regulating

1256
00:49:29,510 --> 00:49:28,160
what people can and can't do

1257
00:49:31,510 --> 00:49:29,520
thank you again to mike davidson if you

1258
00:49:33,990 --> 00:49:31,520
want to learn more about his group you

1259
00:49:35,990 --> 00:49:34,000
can go to core issues trust

1260
00:49:37,990 --> 00:49:36,000
uh just search that on google mike

1261
00:49:39,589 --> 00:49:38,000
davidson at core issues trust to learn

1262
00:49:41,670 --> 00:49:39,599
more about that

1263
00:49:42,950 --> 00:49:41,680
thank you so much mike for giving your

1264
00:49:44,710 --> 00:49:42,960
time to our show

1265
00:49:46,630 --> 00:49:44,720
and good luck with your efforts in the

1266
00:49:49,030 --> 00:49:46,640
uk thank you to

1267
00:49:50,710 --> 00:49:49,040
michael parker our producer and to jake

1268
00:49:52,309 --> 00:49:50,720
wall our intern we'll be back

1269
00:49:58,790 --> 00:49:52,319
soon with another episode of the hidden

1270
00:50:00,309 --> 00:49:58,800
truth show

1271
00:50:02,069 --> 00:50:00,319
thank you for listening to the truth

1272
00:50:05,589 --> 00:50:02,079
show with jim breslow

1273
00:50:07,829 --> 00:50:05,599
you can find us at hiddentruthshow.com

1274
00:50:08,630 --> 00:50:07,839
follow us on facebook twitter and

1275
00:50:11,510 --> 00:50:08,640
instagram

1276
00:50:13,910 --> 00:50:11,520
the hidden truth show join us again next

1277
00:50:14,549 --> 00:50:13,920
week for another episode of hidden truth

1278
00:50:25,990 --> 00:50:14,559
show